Welcome to The Dark Side of White Flint, an ongoing series about the not-so-wonnerful,
wonnerful, wonnerful side of urbanizing the suburbs of Montgomery County.
If you're a fan of White Flint Mall like me, and the P.F. Chang's restaurant there, you'll want to stop in for dinner soon. The restaurant says it will close for good on January 4, 2015.
Gil Fornaris, Market Partner with P.F. Chang's China Bistro, said that the White Flint restaurant is thankful for the many patrons who have supported it over the last 15 years. He said those customers, who made P.F. Chang's one of the most popular dining destinations in the mall, are welcome at the chain's Chevy Chase location at 5406 Wisconsin Avenue after January 4.
In the meantime, service will continue as always at the White Flint Mall location through January 4.
Even after mall owners had made the risky bet to pull the plug on the fully-leased retail center, and redevelop it as an urban town center, P.F. Chang's remained a mainstay along with Lord & Taylor. The latter owns its mall space, and will not be included in the pending demolition. P.F. Chang's was one of several dining draws that made it difficult to find a close parking space on weekends at the mall even just a few years ago. Will that crowd return for the new development?
Although the upscale mall and its impressive architecture will be gone, P.F. Chang's is one tenant that plans to return as part of the new development on the mall site. Alas, most other tenants will not be back, having closed for good or moved to other locations. There is currently no official date for the opening of that future P.F. Chang's at the mall site.
Welcome to the Dark Side.
Go down the rabbit hole and explore the Dark Side of White Flint:
The Beginning
Dave and Buster's closes at White Flint Mall
The Veil of Death
A Classic Mall Movie Theater: The Balcony is Closed
Final Scenes from Abandoned Saab Dealership
The Final Hours of Mid-Pike Plaza
The Last Days of Toys R Us
Hi Robert, enjoying your work, but the 1970s called and said they aren't coming back.
ReplyDelete5:28: I suggest you stop by Westfield Montgomery Mall, Tysons Mall, and Arundel Mills Mall, to name a few, to find out indoor malls are thriving and here to stay.
DeleteInteresting. A few months back I called over there to ask when they'd be closing and was told they would stay open through demolition.
ReplyDeleteI wish they would open another location to replace this one.
ReplyDeleteI don't really have a dog in this hunt, but the way White Flint is being closed is like a very slow strangulation. Doesn't seem like good value for anyone at all. The owner of it doesn't have approved plans yet? WTF?!
ReplyDeleteLord and Taylor reminds me of the situation with Sears at "Landover mall" owned their own store and held out while the mall came down around them.
@ 9:51am
ReplyDeleteYeah, you would think they would follow Cheesecake Factory to Montgomery Fall, but that wouldn't make sense since they plan to return.
@10:49am
The owner did receive approval of a sketch plan a couple years ago. Lord & Taylor's extortionist lawsuit has delayed the project for a while now, which is why it hasn't moved forward since then.
The Friendship Heights one isn't far down the Pike. But if you really want Americanized Asian food, try Meiwah across the street.
ReplyDelete"But if you really want Americanized Asian food..."
ReplyDeleteLOL
On the other hand, if you want genuine Asian food, and specifically, genuine Cantonese food, head over to Wheaton.
Seriously, who needs PF Chang's? There's plenty of good authentic Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Thai, Malay, etc. places around here. PF Chang's is Guy Fieri's idea of an Asian restaurant.
ReplyDelete@ Robert Dyer
ReplyDeleteI'm not the 5:28am Anon, but I suggest you travel to following (remnants of) shopping malls:
MD
- Landover Mall
- Lakeforest Mall
- White Flint Mall
- City Place Mall
- Frederick Towne Mall
- Laurel Mall
- The Mall at Prince Georges
- Hunt Valley Mall
VA
- Springfield Mall
- Ballston Common Mall
- Landmark Mall
...all of which have either been recently torn down (or planned to be), are run down, or are struggling to fill empty storefronts with quality tenants.
A handful of successful high-end malls in neighborhoods where household median incomes are in 6-digit territory DO NOT represent the shopping mall industry at large (or even the region's).
Outdoor town centers are replacing shopping malls everywhere from California to Texas to Massachusetts. Places like Bethesda Row and Wisconsin Place in urban areas, and Washingtonian Center and Pike & Rose in the suburbs, are the future of retail. Blame Walmart, generational preferences, Amazon, whatever...you just can't ignore the reality.
Malls won't disappear entirely, but are obviously more and more shrinking into a high-end niche market rather than being the typical American shopping destinations.
I wouldn't be surprised if Tysons Corner/Galleria, Arundel Mills, the Mall at Columbia, Fair Oaks, Pentagon City, and maybe a handful of others will probably be the only remaining indoor malls in the entire Balt-Wash area in a decade...
4:54: I think it's important to note, for context, that several of the malls you listed were not failing. The landowners in those cases made the decision to seek what they believed would be big profits via urban-style redevelopment. The trend is driven by developers, not consumer preference. What the outcome will be is uncertain. When you have 9 town centers clobbering each other at the same location, and a limited number of wealthy residents to support all of those $50-a-dinner restaurants and high-end boutiques, that's anything but a sure thing. White Flint Mall is a great example of landowners giving up a sure thing for a shiny new unknown.
Delete@ 4:54 PM -
ReplyDeleteSome more struggling or partially closed indoor malls:
-Georgetown Park
-The Shops at National Place
-The Pavilion at the Old Post Office
-Seven Corners Shopping Center
And the following to your list of dead and buried malls:
-Rockville Mall
-Capital Plaza
The odd thing was that Springfield Deadmall was rebuilt and renamed Springfield Town Center - but the new facility is still an indoor mall. We'll see if Vornado got it right, made a ridiculous miscalculation.
"White Flint Mall is a great example of landowners giving up a sure thing for a shiny new unknown."
ReplyDeleteThey lost two of their three anchors in barely a year. With what store could they have replaced those? Certainly not Macy's, since Macy's is at both Montgomery and Wheaton.
With all the local/regional department stores gone, and with the newer generation of department stores not wanting to locate in malls, any mall that does not have a Macy's is a dead mall.
And the expected demise of Sears and JCPenney should finish off several more struggling malls.
7:50: There are a lot of department stores out there to replace Bloomingdale's. In fact, Wegmans has long been rumored to covet the grandfathered dimensions of the Bloomingdale's space. Why not add a huge traffic magnet like Wegmans, and keep the otherwise fully-leased mall (and fill the bookstore space) running? The answer is, that wouldn't give them the big money of residential.
DeleteWalmart and Target would be glad to enter some of the Sears mall real estate around the country, I'm sure.
Robert, what's "unknown" about mixed-use development?
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is White Flint would basically be Bethesda Row on steroids and Bethesda Row is far and away the most successful place in Bethesda.
3:34: The unknown is, what happens when you have 9 Bethesda Rows in the Pike District area going after the same audience? Bethesda Row doesn't have proximate competition, and so far, none of the new downtown Bethesda developments seem to be going after Bethesda Row's market. Then you add in that fact that incomes are far lower around White Flint than in the Bethesda Row/Friendship Heights area. Finally, how long will the public put up with the dungeon-like garages that are part of these developments? Why pay when there's free parking at Westfield Montgomery Mall, Target, Best Buy, Rio, Milestone, etc.? And will any of these developments have the iconic design of Bethesda Lane? My test is, what's the spot where everyone will pose for or take photos to share on social media? Bethesda Lane has that, but I haven't seen a comparable design in White Flint yet.
DeleteFriendship Heights isn't "proximate competition"?
DeleteSilver Spring ain't that far either. Nor is Rockville Town Center. And to your point all these new mixed uses coming up in the Pike Districf.
7:42: No, Friendship Heights is not as close to Bethesda Row as the Pike District town centers will be to each other. The latter will literally be walking distance apart. In the first round of so-called smart growth, we were told that every place needed an urban town center. This time around, every individual project is its own town center. When you put them all together, they'll destroy each other and leave one or two winners. This is not sustainable growth.
DeleteReally Dyer, you complain about the only jobs being baristas and clothing retailers but you want to see a Walmart move in to White Flint? And there's already a Target in right by White Flint.
ReplyDeleteAlso, who goes to Bethesda Lane to take photos? Or to White Flint?
I guess the solution here would be to leave the mall as it is and just develop Westbard as a modern residential area, right Dyer? OH WAIT!
7:16: G. Money, have you been on Instagram recently? Bethesda Lane is the most photographed location in Bethesda by tourists, regional shoppers and local residents. If you think the jobs coming to the new White Flint are high-wage, you'll be in for a shock. Those new baristas and jeans folders will need the low prices of Walmart to get by. The fate of White Flint Mall has already been sealed, so it's a red herring to bring up Westbard, which is a suburban residential neighborhood nowhere near a Metro station.
DeleteRobert, to your comment at 6:42: That's a fair point and maybe you're right.
ReplyDeleteI think it's possible that the same people will continue to shop at both the new mixed use place and the old-school shopping mall. But that's just me speaking from experience. I go to both Bethesda Row and Montgomery Mall. I've also been to the Seasons 52 development on Rockville Pike.
I think these big time developers wouldn't be risking all this money and investment if they didn't have a very solid inkling and studies suggesting it will bring a return on their investment. But they've been wrong before.
Hi Robert ... any sense of when the demo will begin was Jan 4th exit an indicator that demo will begin in January?
ReplyDelete12:06: Nothing has been announced, but it's safe to assume demolition could begin anytime after January 4.
Delete"Why pay when there's free parking at Westfield Montgomery Mall, Target, Best Buy, Rio, Milestone, etc.?"
ReplyDeleteAsk all the people (including) who fill up downtown Bethesda every day and night.
All these town centers eventually flow into each other and become...wait for it...one big urban area similar to what people like to call a "city".
Those things have been around forever, and I think they're doing pretty well.
1:20: The latest numbers suggest otherwise. Millennials are heading for the exits in now-overpriced and under-performing-public-schools DC. Suburbs are growing faster than cities at last count, and single-family homes posted greater gains than apartments and condos in the most recent numbers. I guess your suggestion is that the way to get around the lure of convenience and free parking is to make sure it is replaced with a cookie cutter town center. Unfortunately, trends and countywide income levels suggest that's not going to be sustainable.
DeleteJust one thing to consider. Suburbs may be growing faster because housing close-in is too expensive so new buyers are forced further out. More inventory to match demand might bring prices down a bit and meet true demand versus just showing numbers higher in suburbs out of simple necessity and lack of supply.
Delete7:45: Theoretically, supply and demand determine price. But the examples of DC, Bethesda, New York City and San Francisco suggest that even as large numbers of units are added, prices and rents continue to climb. Clearly the market isn't working. Also, even the furthest parts of the county like Clarksburg and Damascus are experiencing a real estate bubble again. Home prices are way over what they should be there, and again, supply is constantly coming online with no downward effect on prices. The Whitney, The Palisades, Lionsgate, The Adagio, and Rosedale Park were all built in the last cycle, and rents/prices only increased downtown. Now the newest round of buildings have the highest prices ever. Affordable housing does not appear to be a problem we can build ourselves out of. It may require government intervention, if affordable housing is sincerely the top priority.
DeleteBloomberg says DC rents are down with the over supply over apartments in DC. Not rising.
Deletehttp://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-23/washington-faces-apartment-glut-after-boom-real-estate.html
6:11: Those numbers appear to be from April 2013, but in any case, we know prices haven't gone down in Bethesda despite the last building boom.
DeleteYeah, Bethesda hasn't gone down. But if you see Bainbridge at under 40% occupancy and giving away lots of concessions that's not a good sign.
DeletePaid parking can be a negative...just ask the shops and restaurants that have closed at Rockville Town Square. It's no coincidence that Town Square is offering free parking during the holidays.
ReplyDeleteThe Pike can only support so many town centers without increasing the population.
"it's safe to assume demolition could begin anytime after January 4"
ReplyDeletewow, what an insider
4:06: "Wow," nobody knows the answer right now. Not even your guys, George Leventhal and Hans Riemer. They didn't wait to demolish Bloomingdale's.
Delete"Your guys"? That's so weird of you to say. Why would you assume that commenter supports Leventhal and Reimer? Odd comment by a journalist.
Delete7:46: As this sudden burst of comments after a quiet few days suggests, there are somewhere between 1-2 people who post negative comments on here, and they apparently had a vacation the last few days. Those negative commenters have endorsed Leventhal and Riemer in the past. So my remarks were on-point.
DeleteI am one of these commenters and don't know a thing about those two guys so your assumptions aren't really right.
Delete6:04: If you aren't the guy who said, "Wow, what an insider," then my comment is still accurate. I said it's those kind of personal attacks and 2-bit frat guy comments that are the work of 1 or 2 commenters - not all comments. I made that distinction.
DeleteBethesda Lane may be the most photographed location but as a long time Bethesda resident I go there less than before because all the high end ladies clothes stores offer nothing for me and most of the restaurants along Bethesda Row are mediocre at best with the notable exceptions of Cava and Raku and maybe Jaleo. I like the walking aspects but miss the reality of a neighborhood with an all you could eat pizza place and the deli that were there years ago. We could use more real stores like the Bagel store and more local coffee shops,. What about a real bakery? Why close the donut shop?
ReplyDeleteIt seems Federal Realty will kill it's golden goose by demanding higher and higher rents and more boutique ladies stores.
Yeah I find Bethesda row nice to walk around but there isn't anything I really want to go to and spend my money at.
Delete6:35: What you point out is exactly what will likely doom the Pike District concept. If you take out all the Hot Shoppes, McDonald's, Bennigan's and Red Lobsters, you leave either high-priced carry-outs or $50 dinners. It works at Bethesda Row because there's no real competition. That won't be the case in the Pike District.
DeleteI agree Friendship Heights is a bit of a walk from Bethesda row - but wasn't there some data showing both locations people drive to more than walk to? So by car they are quite close.
DeleteI used to work and live right at NoBe Market and that walk to the metro and to White Flint mall actually really sucks so I would end up driving too.
I think they would both in these cases be considered similar proximity.
6:14: I think the vast majority do drive, but if that holds true in the Pike District, it will mean that the touted "grand boulevard" walkable concept will have utterly failed, and cost taxpayers billions to boot.
DeleteI don't think that just because it isn't 100% walkable between communities it is a failure. DuPont Circle and Adams Morgan and each DC neighborhood thrives on its own despite all being fairly close to one another.
DeleteWhat cost the taxpayers billions? Pardon my ignorance...
3:33: The overall goals promised for White Flint are what will cost billions. $5 billion for BRT system, SHA taxpayer-funded projects to construct a "grand boulevard," infrastructure & school costs, $72 million tax cut for White Flint developers, to name a few.
DeleteCan you provide a few references for your info? BRT study hasn't even begun to discuss funding options or costs. More infrastructure and school costs would imply more tax base perhaps? Developer tax cuts are designed to spur economic growth, grow taxes, improve an area, lower crime, etc.
DeleteSo even if the "grand boulevard" doesn't end up being 100% walkable doesn't mean the development won't be a success, necessarily. Nor does it mean it will have "cost" the taxpayers billions that aren't recouped in any way, shape, or form. Some big "ifs" anyway? And the financial folks behind development and behind government theoretically have a leg up on these calculations and forecasts that you or I are probably lacking. Unless you have an economics degree, urban planning degree, etc. I love talking about this stuff and will be the first to readily say I don't know the answers and would love to hear all sides, not just my own preferred story.
Delete5:13: I have mentioned before that, as the county's structural deficit proves, ultimately infrastructure, schools and services costs exceed the new revenue generated by new housing. Remember, we had several building booms prior to the current one, but we always have a deficit at the budget deadline.
DeleteThe BRT full system was forecast by county planners to cost $10 billion. It was reduced in size by 50%, so that's where the $5B figure comes from.
5:17: I've yet to see the county recoup its expenses from Clarksburg, Damascus, Olney, Germantown, etc. in the previous building boom. Theoretically, for the sake of argument, you could have vastly successful retail in the Pike District, but it would still have failed to achieve the stated vision - and that vision is much more expensive than the current status quo along the Pike. So you'd have to say it failed if it doesn't become a walking and transit-oriented community.
DeleteYou would have to, you say... Have to. Yikes.
Delete