Welcome to The Dark Side of White Flint, an ongoing series about the not-so-wonnerful, wonnerful, wonnerful side of urbanizing the suburbs of Montgomery County.
The "veil of death" has appeared on top of White Flint Mall, along the next wing to be demolished. Black netting draped over the roof and side of the structure is very similar to that which appeared on the historic Suburban Trust Building in Rockville, when its shameful demolition began.
You can also see the dumpsters awaiting debris in the parking lot. There is also an asbestos removal project going on. If any architects/construction experts are reading this, maybe you can let us know if the netting is related to asbestos, or just conventional demolition.
Speaking of shameful, I will respectfully ask again that no one steal my White Flint Mall photos and repost them on the internet. All photos ©2014 Robert Dyer. These photos belong to me, and any use must be with my express permission.
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| "Veil of death" netting draped over mall wing at right ©2014 Robert Dyer |
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| Dumpsters await debris ©2014 Robert Dyer |
43 comments:
Hurrah! Anything at all would be more pedestrian-friendly, including a lake!
No lake; it will be a sea of concrete, just like the rest of the "new" White Flint development.
You go, White Flint. Hopefully the extraordinarily embarrassing land-use policies of the 60s and 70s will soon be but a memory.
"Veil of Death" is a little dramatic. Also isn't white flint currently a "sea of concrete" with parking lots. I dont see how adding tree lined trees makes it worse?
"tree lined streets"*
The "extraordinarily embarrassing" land-use policies of the 50s, 60s and 70s built the middle class, and attracted 1 million people to live in Montgomery County.
Dramatic words for a dramatic change, from suburban to urban. Currently in White Flint, you can still see the sky and trees beyond the commercial area. There is still a small amount of green space. Concrete for concrete, and a change in character that is not consistent with the surrounding area, nor with the limited capacity of Metro north of Grosvenor.
Bethesda and downtown rockville seem pretty green to me. Alot greener then the current state whiteflint is in.
2:11 - I'm assuming your comment is meant as sarcasm, or you're out of touch with reality. Either way, not a good argument for urbanizing the suburbs.
I'm not 2:11, but I think it's extremely obvious the tree cover of downtown Rockville and Bethesda exceeds that of White Flint...by a whole heck of a lot (not to mention the site plan for this development adds something like 3 acres to the parkland already found at the eastern portion of the parcel, along with 5 plazas spread throughout the development, along with all the tree-lined streets).
The current building is the lowest possible use of the land. Not to mention the fact the vast majority of the land is simply covered in asphalt. It's embarrassing.
It's honestly weird to find someone who defends it. Oh well, surely you don't think we should force people to use malls again or refuse to allow the owner to develop his land as he (and the market) sees fit. All this wailing over a defunct mall is moot.
"The 'extraordinarily embarrassing' land-use policies of the 50s, 60s and 70s built the middle class, and attracted 1 million people to live in Montgomery County."
Wake up and join the 21st century, buddy. And suggesting 1M MoCoers are here because they enjoy crap like the old White Flint Mall is insane. You honestly can't think more than a small percentage of people would prefer the old White Flint Mall to the redevelopment plan. Hence why the owner of the mall is spending hundreds of millions on redevelopment.
I don't understand this bloggers die hard defense of malls, strip shopping centers, and acres of parkings lots. The whole DC region is moving to walkable, dense development around transit but this guy is still convinced that strip malls are the future. Its like listening someone who is still convinced the world is flat.
11:16, the 2:11 commenter said downtown Bethesda and downtown Rockville "seem pretty green," which is just not the case. If you're just counting trees of any size, downtown Bethesda has far more than the other two. But many of those still stand only because the property they're on hasn't been redeveloped yet.
Situationally, the environment in White Flint is suburban, with the residential green areas and sky still visible from most vantage points. There is no Central Park-style green area in the downtowns of Bethesda or Rockville.
Is there any chance you will call for a "higher" use of the "covered in asphalt" Potomac Village, where many of the developers live nearby? It's interesting that we don't hear these arguments for change in Potomac, Spring Valley, the Palisades, etc. where nothing has changed for decades. Hmm.
11:31 PM - You're defending a Cold War Soviet-style land-use plan for the "new" White Flint, and you're telling *me* to wake up and join the 21st century?
I'm not only suggesting 1 M people are here to live a suburban lifestyle, it's a fact that they are here to live a suburban lifestyle.
6:23 - I don't understand these commenters' die-hard defense of cookie-cutter town centers with the same expensive chain restaurants and retail, Soviet-style apartment blocs, no leisure amenities other than fountains or pocket parks, and a White Flint vision that has yet to attract a single major corporation or Le Diplomate/chef-driven restaurant.
Not all Metro stations are the same. Some are suburban park-and-ride stations, and are not comparable to Dupont Circle.
The numbers show that the "hot, young millenials" are voting with their U-Haul trucks for a suburban lifestyle, now that it's time to send the kids to school, or when they've been priced out of the neighborhoods where they once were gentrifying newcomers. What goes around comes around.
Do you have any plans to agitate for radical change in the strip malls of Potomac, Spring Valley, and the Palisades? Where the developers live, and where Soviet-style urban planning remains an energizing inspiration, yeah, those folks' world is pretty darn flat, isn't it?
"It's interesting that we don't hear these arguments for change in Potomac, Spring Valley, the Palisades, etc. where nothing has changed for decades."
It's not interesting, it's logical. The redevelopment is occurring where the infrastructure to support it is already in place. If Potomac was 100 yards from a metro station I'd be in favor of upzoning it, of course.
"Cold War Soviet-style land-use plan"
wtf? Now you're seriously reaching.
"I'm not only suggesting 1 M people are here to live a suburban lifestyle, it's a fact that they are here to live a suburban lifestyle."
How can someone who spends so much time in downtown Bethesda be so completely out of touch with market demand? Oh well.
The proposed new development is no more "cookie-cutter" than that which it replaces.
Repeatedly calling any and all high-rise apartments, and even the existence any kind of master plan, as "Soviet-style" is way over the top.
Regarding "Potomac, Spring Valley, Palisades", it's extremely difficult to up-zone large blocs of land that have already been built-up as single-family homes to allow more dense development. That's why nearly all of the re-development is occurring in existing commercial or multi-family housing areas. This is true not just in Montgomery County and DC but in most of the United States.
Also, the three areas you cite are not along the Metro line (nor along major highways) so they are less appropriate for higher-density development than White Flint
Can they run BRT out to Potomac, and return the streetcar to the Palisades? That would qualify them for some of this great urbanization, too. By the way, Westbard is not on Metro, but the county is trying to urbanize it. So let's spread the wealth to Potomac and the Palisades!
Downtown Bethesda is completely different from White Flint. It's an edge city, and has greater Metro capacity - as bad as it is - than communities north of Grosvenor.
Frank, I would argue that - minus the JBG projects - most of what has been proposed for White Flint is far more cookie cutter than the architecture of White Flint Mall.
I would be the last person to suggest upzoning single-family homes. What I'm referring to are the commercial areas within Potomac, Spring Valley and the Palisades. They are identical to the Westbard Sector in Bethesda - nowhere near Metro, simply commercial areas within suburban residential neighborhoods. Here's the kicker: the MoCo Council is now trying to urbanize the Westbard Sector.
So why are Potomac, Spring Valley and the Palisades - where many of the developers and attorneys who are pushing smart growth live - not getting the same urbanization treatment? Why can't they take the same pill they're prescribing for the rest of us? Potomac is on the same state highway as Westbard. Can we bring vibrant spaces to Potomac, as well? Wouldn't want the developers to miss out on the infinite benefits of urbanization.
Sigh how many times will people have to tell this blogger that he is crazy before he sees the light? I for one am glad that only a small minority of people have this view point on development and how MoCo should develop for the future.
America is very big and while many places are doing this urbanization thing, not everywhere is. I am wary of comments like "ALL millenials don't want cars." There is some truth that people will move to the suburbs once the kids come. There's a couple on my block who lived on U street and then had twins. Now they live in Bethesda. This is just one example. People do get priced out of their hip urban existences or realize that the hip urban existence brings with it a private school tuition bill.
Potomac Village Shopping Center is pretty underutilized.
It's a one level center with a sea of parking. There are also two gas stations right next to each other.
Potomac is a desireable area, why not build apartments on the site with shopping underneath?
I imagine Potomac residents would want a better shopping experience.
It's well served by the T2 bus to Rockville or Friendship Heights Metro. On weekends, it has as much transit access as the Westbard neighborhood.
The Palisades needs to be more hip. More bars first of all. And the Safeway there is an antique. The old apartment buildings should be replaced on MacArthur.
Robert Dyer probably still thinks we're gonna find the WMDs in Iraq
Westbard is similar to White Flint, in that it's a relatively large, flat, contiguous area of land already used for commercial, multi-family housing, and even light industry.
The Palisades is very different from White Flint, in that the areas which are already used for commercial or multi-family housing are much smaller and not contiguous - just three areas not more than one block long and shallow. And the terrain there - steeply sloping towards the river - is not appropriate for larger sites.
Both Spring Valley and Palisades are already pedestrian-friendly, so they do not require the same kind of make-over that our suburban strip developments require.
Westbard is similar to White Flint, in that it's a relatively large, flat, contiguous area of land already used for commercial, multi-family housing, and even light industry.
The Palisades is very different from White Flint, in that the areas which are already used for commercial or multi-family housing are much smaller and not contiguous - just three areas not more than one block long and shallow. And the terrain there - steeply sloping towards the river - is not appropriate for larger sites.
Both Spring Valley and Palisades are already pedestrian-friendly, so they do not require the same kind of make-over that our suburban strip developments require.
You call people who disagree with you "crazy?" Does this represent the civil, rational Smart Growth movement in Montgomery County?
Frank, Westbard is not anything like White Flint. It is a commercial area that serves the residential neighborhoods around it. There is no mall or destination retail. And there is no Metro station. The size of the Westbard Sector is tiny compared to the "Pike District" monstrosity current being assembled by the county.
I never compared the Palisades to White Flint; I very appropriately compared it to Westbard. Westbard is on a slope, too, and that's not stopping development there. The Palisades and Spring Valley both have strip centers, as does Potomac. So it's fascinating that we're not hearing of the "revitalization" of those "underutilized parking lots" and "outdated retail." Any of those sites could easily be made "vibrant" in the size and scope of the Equity One/EYA plan for Westbard.
How are Spring Valley and Palisades more "pedestrian friendly" than Westbard? They all have sidewalks and crosswalks. I've been walking around all 3 since I was a kid, and all 3 are walkable.
Dyer SHUT YOUR FACE!
No, he doesn't, 9:16. You don't even know my position on the Iraq war, and I can't imagine what that has to do with land-use decisions in Montgomery County.
Westbard is the same as White Flint?
I'm assuming whoever said that has never visited the Westbard neighborhoods.
White Flint is supposed to be the future downtown for the whole county with highest buildings and greatest density. It's on top of a Metro.
Meanwhile, Westbard is a suburban neighborhood with an old shopping center. It is served by one Ride On bus (that stops running at 7pm on weekends). It is not walkable to any Metro station.
I frankly don't see the similarity!
Hi,
Any other news on this White flint demolition Mr.Dyer, are P.F.Chang's and Dave and Buster's still open? Which date are they actually going to start demolition? Pease reply back. Thanks!
P.F. Chang's and Dave and Buster's are still open. The wing being demolished is separate from those establishments.
What is happening with PF Chang's? You've covered how Dave & Busters and Lord & Taylor have been fighting in the courts to stay, but PF Chang just seems to be hanging around. Are they similarly fighting being pushed out? Any word on how much longer they'll stay open?
P.F. Chang's is not saying anything publicly. The rumors have been that they are going to stay at White Flint, but move into a new, stand-alone restaurant building that will be built in the current parking lot.
By the way, Lord & Taylor's fight was to keep the mall from being demolished. However, they don't need to fight to stay, because they own their building. So they can stay forever regardless of what Lerner/Tower do.
Wow that was ridiculous. I was the first commenter ("Hurrah!").
White Flint used to be a farm. Then it was a 9-hole golf course, which is surely a suburban amenity people move to find, but in the 1960's it went the way of all real estate not performing at highest and best use. It made way for an early version of Costco on that land called GEM, yet another suburban amenity. And finally we got White Flint, developed roughly at the time of the Metro without any relationship to it. I remember trying to walk from the station to the mall in the 1980s--it was a downright dangerous experience.
There was a time when people moved to White Flint to grow tobacco (or rather, to have their slaves grow tobacco for them)--Old Georgetown Road and Rockville Pike were both haul roads to the port. Now people move to White Flint to live in high rise luxury apartments and commute to Washington. Times change. People do with land what makes best sense and most money. They always have at White Flint.
And as for my lake idea - well, a book out there claims that at least one person could walk on water, which makes it more pedestrian friendly than White Flint Mall.
River Road was also a tobacco route to the port at Georgetown. So should we bring the "highest and best use" of land to the strip malls and parking lots of Potomac, where many of the developers live?
It's that commute into Washington that will be a major problem at White Flint. They're not making any substantive north-south road improvements or building any new highways. Metro capacity is terrible past Grosvenor. That's just bad planning strategy, certainly not award-winning.
I'm willing to bet that the surface parking lot at White Flint is a lot easier to walk on than a lake.
Someone at PF Chang's told me last week that they are staying at White Flint Mall, and are having a new restaurant being built.
As far as White Flint Mall Goes, Its basically a good structure being demolished. So sad.
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