Work continues on the small plaza being added alongside the Capital Crescent Trail where it meets Bethesda Avenue by Ourisman Honda. The plaza is being created by the dealership as part of a settlement with Montgomery County, after Ourisman built a garage addition in several public rights-of-way, including that of the CCT. Despite the trade-off, the garage and wall would still block a secretly-planned westward extension of the Purple Line to Westbard and Sumner Place.
38 comments:
Wandering around a construction site at dawn? Did you bring your huge hard hat to fit your ginormous super stable genius head which holds your bigly stable genius brain?
"The garage and wall would still block a secretly-planned westward extension of the Purple Line to Westbard and Sumner Place."
They took down that entire shopping center on 16th Street for the Purple Line. They won't hesitate to take down that garage if it is needed for a quick ride to Tysons, and a two-seat ride to Dulles.
Here, let me fix this for you:
"The garage and wall would need to be modified or removed in the future if a 3 mile long westward extension of the Purple Line was built to Westbard and Sumner Place. It would potentially enhance connectivity and would likely become a development catalyst at two low-density commercially zoned neighborhoods that are currently underserved by transit. Just like areas currently under construction east of Bethesda, the CCT would need to be modified to co-exist with the light rail tracks and power system.
Two new stations, and track extensions within the former railroad right of way might be a relatively affordable idea to enhance transit options. New wider and stronger bridges over cross roads would likely be required to support both the CCT and the weight of the light rail.
Future expansion could follow the CCT south and east to Georgetown and even connect to the Blue, Orange and Silver Lines at Foggy Bottom, or head west across the Potomac on a new bridge to NoVa and connect with the Silver Line or perhaps split at Sumner Place and go to both.
Once the Purple Line Phase One is up and running, massive ridership numbers on this Healy populated east west corridor might help validate expansion plans.
The expanded plaza will be nice at this busy corner. Once the Capital Crescent Surface Trail is improved with a separated bike lane, all the way to Elm Park, and reconnect with the new CCT that will be adjacent to the Purple Line, this area will see lots more biker and hiker traffic. I think the improvements to Bethesda Avenue for this separated bike lane and bike signals is supposed to be built this fall.
6:25: What new bridge to NoVa, and who would pay for the astronomical cost? There was no demand for a less meandering Bethesda-Tysons Express Bus years ago, and it was canceled. The MARC budget is already going to be gutted by Purple Line ridership losses in the next decade.
A much cheaper and better alternative would be to run Metro down the middle of a new Potomac River crossing to Dulles Airport, which would be built by a company with private funds at no cost to taxpayers. Unlike the Purple Line, such a road has an existing right-of-way from I-370 to the Potomac River, where it would cross and link to Route 28 near Dulles Airport.
What company? You keep talking about the private ‘company’ but never say who it is. You never say how much this will cost the taxpayers. All you say is ‘next to nothing’ but ‘next to’ isn’t nothing.
7:11/7:08: There are many firms, national and international, that do exactly this. The Hogan Express Lanes plan is structured the same way - private construction, and they recoup their costs via the tolls after completion.
If the company goes bankrupt, the road becomes Montgomery County's for free.
Only a fool would claim to know the structure of a contract, or who the contractor(s) would be, for something not even up for bid yet. What I am telling you is what could be done, if we had real leaders in the County.
"A much cheaper and better alternative would be to run Metro down the middle of a new Potomac River crossing to Dulles Airport, which would be built by a company with private funds at no cost to taxpayers."
Don't know what fantasy you live in, but you're wrong on all counts. It wouldn't be cheaper, it wouldn't be better, and it wouldn't be at no cost to taxpayers.
What private company would want to build that? Do you realize how few people travel from Rockville and Gaithersburg to the Dulles? The vast majority of people driving to Virginia from Maryland want to go to DC (via GW Pkwy), Reagan airport, Tysons, the Pentagon, and pretty soon Amazon HQ2. A new bridge to Loudoun County farmland, Trump's golf course, and possibly the world's crappiest airport helps almost no one.
"The Hogan Express Lanes plan is structured the same way - private construction, and they recoup their costs via the tolls after completion."
The difference is, there's actually very heavy demand on I-270 and the Beltway. There is very little demand to warrant a brand new expressway from Rockville to Dulles Airport that will cost the taxpayers countless tens of billions. Virginia already has a dedicated access road from the Beltway to Dulles that serves far more people, but it's always mostly empty.
BTB is clueless on how private roads are built. The Bond holders are the ones who take over the road, not the county (actually State in this case).
"What new bridge to NoVa, and who would pay for the astronomical cost? There was no demand for a less meandering Bethesda-Tysons Express Bus years ago, and it was canceled."
The route along the extended Purple Line would not be "meandering" - it would be more direct than the current route via the Beltway, and much more direct than going up to Shady Grove and then turning southwest to the "Second Crossing". The Bethesda-Tysons bus was forced to drive in the same traffic as all other vehicles, so it had no time advantage.
"The MARC budget is already going to be gutted by Purple Line ridership losses in the next decade."
[citation needed]
"A much cheaper and better alternative would be to run Metro down the middle of a new Potomac River crossing to Dulles Airport."
If the Purple Line were extended west to McLean/Tysons, the distance from downtown Bethesda to Dulles via the Purple and Silver Lines would be about 20 miles. The Purple Line extension would be 7 miles.
Building a connection between the south end of Sam Eig Highway to Dulles would require the following:
-10 miles of new road and rail between the south end of Sam Eig Highway and the Second Crossing in Maryland.
-5 miles of new road and rail between the Second Crossing and the north end of VA 28 in Virginia.
-12 miles of new rail along VA 28 to Dulles in Virginia.
-3 miles of new rail connecting Shady Grove Metro station with the start of the new road at the south end of Sam Eig Highway.
-Also, Sam Eig Highway would need to be upgraded to a freeway between Fields Road and Great Seneca Highway (about 3/4 miles).
Including the 10-mile trip from Bethesda to Shady Grove, going from downtown Bethesda to Dulles using this route would be 38 miles long, nearly twice as long as the route via an extended Purple Line.
"[It] would be built by a company with private funds at no cost to taxpayers."
Can you cite where this has ever been done in the USA? You might want to review the history of the Dulles Greenway.
"[The] road has an existing right-of-way from I-370 to the Potomac River, where it would cross and link to Route 28 near Dulles Airport."
No, there is no right-of-way south of the south end of Sam Eig Highway. In fact, the location of a bridge was NEVER FINALIZED. It could be anywhere between 2-3 miles north of Great Falls, and directly north of the north end of VA 28 - that's a range of 12 miles. What you still fail to grasp is that a desire line on a 50-60 year old planning map DOES NOT EQUAL "RIGHT-OF-WAY"
"If the company goes bankrupt, the road becomes Montgomery County's for free."
Let's say I buy a DieHard battery from Sears using my Sears credit card.
If Sears shuts down, that's not going to make my debt magically disappear.
8:12: The right-of-way is preserved. Nothing can be built on it other than this future road.
The right of way actually comes off Sam Eig Highway prior to the new fitness center and bridge to Rio, heads northwest briefly, then southwest all the way to the Potomac River. We don't need to include Metro, but it would make sense to construct the trackbed for future rail use down the center of the new Potomac River crossing.
Do you realize how slow the Purple Line would operate between Bethesda and Tysons, compared to a car on Express Lanes or a heavy rail subway from Shady Grove to Dulles?
7:57: You're clueless about how modern infrastructure contracts are negotiated. A clause is included that states the facility reverts to the County if the private firm folds.
7:48/7:54: Dulles Airport now exceeds Reagan National in passengers. Wake up and smell the jet fuel. The new Potomac River crossing would link to the ICC, and eventually form the Outer Beltway that would divert East Coast traffic from I-95 off our Beltway. That would be very heavy traffic, but controlled via variable tolls.
8:20: That's because you don't have a contract with Sears that states your debt will magically disappear. A smart government entity makes sure the road/facility reverts back to them free of charge if the private firm collapses at any point. You then take on the cost of maintenance, but you get the road for free.
BTB doesn't realize that bonds prime everyone and governments are sensitive to more debt. If the state (county in BTB's reference above) steps in to take over the roads, the bonds still must be paid. The tax payers will be responsible and the AAA Maryland credit rating will be compromised.
Can you believe this guy ran for office? Thank God he never won.
8:48: What "bonds?" The private firm would be building the road, not Montgomery County, Einstein.
Imagine if I had won - we'd finally have someone who knows what he's doing in control of our government. Right now we're being governed by very stupid people - like you.
Private builders raise bonds to finance most of cost of road construction. The private firm who build Dulles Greenway issued over $700 million in bonds that are paid off over 30 years from the tolls. The Hot lanes were over $1 billion.
Thank God you didn't win and put the taxpayers on the hook. Educate yourself BTB and realize that there is a difference between General Obligation bonds and Revenue bonds.
"The new Potomac River crossing would link to the ICC, and eventually form the Outer Beltway that would divert East Coast traffic from I-95 off our Beltway."
Virginia has no plans to build a highway connecting VA 28 at I-66, to I-95, nor do they have plans to upgrade the Fairfax County Parkway.
Stop playing with your magic wand, Robbie.
@ 8:48 AM wrote:
"BTB doesn't realize that bonds prime everyone and governments are sensitive to more debt. If the state (county in BTB's reference above) steps in to take over the roads, the bonds still must be paid. The tax payers will be responsible and the AAA Maryland credit rating will be compromised."
"Prime" this context means that bondholders receive the highest priority among all creditors of a bankrupt entity.
"When a corporation is liquidated in the U.S., its creditors are paid in a particular order, as required by Section 507 of the Bankruptcy Code. Secured creditors including secured bondholders get first priority. Next in line are unsecured creditors, which generally include the company's suppliers, employees, and banks. Stockholders are last in line."
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/corporate-liquidation-unpaid-taxes-wages.asp
Saith Dyer: "A smart government entity makes sure the road/facility reverts back to them free of charge if the private firm collapses at any point."
I'd love to see any Build-Operate-Transfer contract that includes such a provision. Perhaps Dyer could show us where Virginia's contract for the Beltway HOT lanes includes such a provision?
"The new Potomac River crossing would link to the ICC, and eventually form the Outer Beltway that would divert East Coast traffic from I-95 off our Beltway"
So "East Coast traffic" is going to pay toll on the ICC plus whatever astronomical toll needed to finance your fantasy bridge so they can add another 20 miles to their trip. Gotcha.
"A smart government entity makes sure the road/facility reverts back to them free of charge if the private firm collapses at any point. You then take on the cost of maintenance, but you get the road for free."
Those creditors must either be brain-dead or exceptionally altruistic to forgive billions in loans.
Traffic growth has already made an outer beltway a necessity, and an attractive investment for toll road builder/operators. The obvious place is VA 28 plus bridge.
If the toll road owner operator goes bust, its bondholders will suffer, not the State, County, or taxpayer.
The extended Purple Line would run along the alignment of the Capital Crescent Trail between the Bethesda Metro station and a point just south of Sumner Place shopping center.
In Virginia, it would run in the median strip of Dolley Madison Boulevard from the CIA campus to either the McLean or Tysons Corner Metro station.
The only significant challenge in terms of right-of-way acquisition would be the 1.5-2.0 mile gap between Sumner Place and the CIA campus.
I love how Dyer is inviting the company to build a toll road, investing their own money, while Dyer is rooting for them to fail so that the County can expropriate the assets.
Dyer is such a fine capitalist.
The Metro has a maximum top speed of about 75 MPH, but normally only operates at a maximum speed of 59 MPH.
The Purple Line has a maximum speed of about 55 MPH. So if the Purple Line extended from Bethesda to Tyson’s with only a few stops at Westbard, Sumner and the FBI, it could make the nearly direct trip in a reasonable amount of time for commuters. This usage of light rail, could function more as commuter rail for that portion, and have longer distances between stops, and less dwell time at fewer stations.
Folks that live near Bethesda, Westbard and Sumner Place would have greatly enhanced transit options to the FBI, Tyson’s, and could continue on to Dulles using the Silver Line Phase Two, and not travel through DC.
4:29: There's no viable financing model to pay for a light rail bridge over the Potomac, especially at the location you're suggesting.
11:42: You really need to get out more often from that dark room - people are already paying tolls at other points on I-95, and more are coming.
11:23: Why would you look only at Virginia's contract?
10:18: Not only has Virginia already expanded the Fairfax County Parkway (they used Obama's stimulus money, while we had to waste ours repaving roads because we had no shovel-ready road projects thanks to the County Council), but the parkway was only part of the old Outer Beltway plan, when it would have connected to our Rockville Freeway at a bridge by Riverbend Park. The new Outer Beltway would turn back to I-95 much farther south than FFX.
9:12: LOL - you were the idiot - you stated that County taxpayers would be on the hook for bonds, when in fact, the County would not be funding the road. The private company is on the hook for the financing.
It's people like you who have been in charge for too long, and now we need people like me, who actually know what they are doing, know business in the year 2019, and understand the current world of transportation infrastructure.
"The new Outer Beltway would turn back to I-95 much farther south than FFX."
There are NO PLANS FOR SUCH A ROAD IN VIRGINIA.
9:17: LOL - You're obviously out of the loop on Northern Virginia politics, to say the least. Many such plans, and options, have been and are being discussed in the governor's mansion, committees in the legislature, and among business groups. There have even been bills written, but that did not get out of committee.
Sorry, I meant to type CIA, not FBI.
My point was that a more direct route, with less stations, might allow light rail to make a quicker trip between major business and residential clusters of Bethesda and Tyson’s. GGW has suggested that instead of a bridge, only a tunnel under the Potomac makes sense. It adds some long sections of inclined track and minimizes the possibility of easy station construction.
I have no idea how this could get approved or financed, but bridges (and tunnels) across or under rivers have been built for centuries. A simple bridge with only light rail tracks, and maybe a pedestrian/bike walkway wouldn’t be a huge endeavor, like an eight lane freeway. This is not a “moon shot” of an idea, and if it makes sense to reduce traffic congestion by enhancing east west transit options, perhaps it can get built.
One benefit to this extension might be that less supporting infrastructure like maintenance yards and training facilities would be needed, reducing cost somewhat, compared to Phase One. Perhaps combined with a freeway crossing more upstream, we could get the best combination of connectivity. Your idea to divert southbound eastern seaboard traffic before getting to the beltway makes real sense, but doesn’t really help, with down-county transit to NoVa. By doing both, maybe we can solve multiple problems.
"You really need to get out more often from that dark room - people are already paying tolls at other points on I-95, and more are coming."
Dark room? What is that even supposed to mean? Don't start using your imbecilic insults on me. I haven't insulted you.
People pay tolls on I-95 and parallel freeways because they're the quickest way to travel by road in the Northeast. Only a real fool to pay a toll for a much longer route, especially since there's no toll required on the Beltway or Wilson Bridge right now.
6:55: A lot of people will pay to avoid the traffic mess of going around our Beltway by using an Outer Beltway bypass, just as they use the ICC. You claimed there were no tolls on I-95, which indicates you do not drive up and down I-95 very far.
6:49: The downcounty trip to Virginia will be resolved with the Express Lanes on the Beltway connecting to the Express Lanes on Virginia's side of the Legion Bridge - if Montgomery County's elected officials will stop delaying that critical project. At little cost to taxpayers, and carrying far more commuters, it is a much-wiser investment than a Purple Line bridge. Tunnel? Even Metro can't get one of those yet.
Maintenance yards for the Purple Line will be...at River Road in the industrial area. Shh!!!!!!!
"Tunnel? Even Metro can't get one of those yet."
Huh? 50 miles out of Metro's 118 mile system are in tunnels - including tunnels under several major waterways - the Potomac River, the Washington Channel, the Anacostia River, and Rock Creek.
7:18: No kidding! I'm talking about now. They've been trying to get another tunnel under the Potomac in recent years, but have received no funding for it.
What motivates all this criticism from people who are so poorly informed about the issues?
Game, set and match to Robert Dyer.
Would someone please explain to me why the tone of the comments on this website are so incredibly vicious? It's very hard to understand the point of the extreme level of anger and disdain displayed in what people write here. As an infrequent reader of the site, it seems that Robert's documentation of changes in the county and especially Bethesda are useful and a good public service. His analysis and grievances might be off-base at times (as all of ours are, too), but why does that result in this incredible level of viciousness toward him? Be constructive!
@2:09 pm: It really is a mystery. Those who attack Dyer also attack anyone who disagrees with them, often in an offensive way.
I asked this question a little while ago. Only “Anna” replied, though with nonsense. She has posted literally thousands of negative, information-free comments. Why?
I attended one of the public sessions regarding the new proposal for the beltway and I-270, and I asked about the financing of this public-private partnership: who is going to borrow the money - the private partner or the public partner? I didn't get a clear answer, but I got the impression that the private partner would have to raise the money.
A private entity cannot issue tax-free municipal bonds; only an instrumentality of the state can do that. Most road projects are financed by tax-free revenue bonds issued by the state highway authority or similar state entity, with the bond proceeds going to pay for the construction of the road and the bonds being paid off either by toll revenues that the state collects or perhaps via taxes or other fees. The cost of borrowing if a state agency can issue tax free bonds for the project is much lower than if a private company has to borrow money on the open market. Of course, it is possible that the project would be set up so that the state agency would issue the bonds, the private partner would collect all the tolls, and then the private partner would be required to pay to the state the cost of bond interest and principal, but I got the impression that this is not how they want to do it.
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