So ignore the distraction of a "Beltway Purple Line" or "American Legion Bridge Purple Line." The River Road station will not only upzone building heights and densities to urban levels, but will also be used to rezone properties like the Fourth Presbyterian Church, the Maryland State Highway Administration's River Road depot, and Kenwood Golf and Country Club for urban density. Hints at that even-grander scheme can be seen in the failed attempt to remove Kenwood's property tax exemption to try to bankrupt the club, and in real estate developer Gov. Larry Hogan's eagerness to covertly lower the River Road speed limit to 35 MPH over one recent night.
Second, the folks whom the developers employ are often carpetbaggers who aren't familiar with the landscapes and communities they are writing about. Let's not even get into the fact that they have no clue as to the political blowback they will get trying to run two tracks and a trail through Kenwood. But now that the Montgomery County cartel has done the impossible - defeating the once-invulnerable Columbia Country Club - they feel no one can stand in their way.
But just the topography alone of the proposed route through Westbard and Sumner is a mystery to many of the Purple Line extension advocates. For example, the Georgetown Branch railroad route the Capital Crescent Trail is based on is quite narrow west of the River Road industrial area. As bad as the clearcutting and landscape destruction has been on the Purple Line east of downtown Bethesda, a Purple Line west of River Road would wreak catastrophic environmental devastation. Through Sumner, to fit two tracks, a trail, a median, and fencing, would require something akin to mining companies blowing up West Virginia mountaintops.
Simiilarly, the article linked to above proposes a deep bore tunnel under the Potomac River that would begin on the Capital Crescent Trail near the Washington Aqueduct on MacArthur Boulevard. Did anyone stop to think about the massive drop between those two points? The cost of making such a radical grade transition via a subterranean tunnel?
Grade issues also raise the question of whether light rail is even the most sensible mode for such a rail route. How would light rail trains navigate such steep inclines? And the transit connection Purple Line extension advocates are trying to make is to...the Silver Line, which is a heavy rail subway line, not light rail. Wouldn't you want the trains to be compatible and run all the way to Dulles Airport, just as we are trying to extend MARC and VRE across state lines where applicable?
If one was really serious about creating viable transit, and not just about a cheap facilitation of stack-and-pack urban development, or destroying exclusive suburban neighborhoods, it's clear that a Metrorail route running mostly underground on the Maryland side would be the most sensible mode of transportation. Good luck getting developers and their puppets on the Council to pay for that; developers who have realized Bus Rapid Transit gets them the same profits are leading the nationwide trends of BRT and light rail, best interests of commuters and the environment be damned.
Third, we actually already know that the demand for transit between Bethesda and Tysons is virtually nonexistent. Unlike new arrivals examining the issue for the first time in 2019, longtime residents will remember we had an express Metrobus that ran regularly between the Bethesda Metro station and Tysons. It was canceled for lack of ridership. According to Metro, the express bus to Tysons required a subsidy of $10.84 per passenger, compared to a Metrobus average of $1.99 per passenger. Ridership dropped over 50% between 2000 and 2003. That was because the bus ceased to be free to ride. Oops.
The final nail in the coffin of common sense? Purple Line extension boosters are promising a 30-40 minute trip between Bethesda and Tysons. Like most subsidized public transit - such as the 50 minute proposed BRT line between Clarksburg and Shady Grove Metro, this is not a competitive time advantage over driving. Fuel costs for most modern cars would be less than the train fare. Again, only MARC commuter rail or a true heavy rail subway could provide the speed necessary to make rail an attractive alternative to driving.
Does anyone really want to spend an hour or two - factoring in bus connections to the Purple Line - traveling between Bethesda and Tysons? No. In fact, they did not want to ride the express Metrobus in 1998 between the two towns, and its travel time was as fast or faster than the proposed Purple Line extension. Instead of proposing solutions in search of problems at the behest of the developers and their hidden agenda, we should be solving the problems we know are hurting our economic development.
What we should really be spending money on are reducing highway congestion, and completing our unfinished master plan highway system. Want to fix the American Legion Bridge and speed car travel between the moribund bedroom community of Montgomery County and the booming job center of Tysons? Add the proposed Express Lanes to the Beltway on the Maryland side, linking up to the just-proposed extension to the bridge on the Virginia side.
Second, build the new Potomac River crossing to Dulles. A full 25% of cars on the American Legion Bridge are traveling to, or from, the Dulles area in both the morning and evening rush hours. Much of that traffic can be diverted to the new bridge. Combined with the Express Lanes, we would have much faster travel between Bethesda and Tysons, attract more jobs to Montgomery, and avoid damaging our successful residential neighborhoods around Westbard and Sumner Place. With our moribund economy and structural budget deficit, we need more offices, not more bedrooms.
By all indications, though, the County Council opposes every master plan highway that previous Councils refused to build. County elected officials in Rockville and Annapolis are frantically trying to stop Maryland's Express Lanes plan for I-270 and the Beltway, even as Virginia is approving the final leg of theirs between D.C. and Fredericksburg, where the office market is "on fire," according to one businessman there. In just the last few years, Virginia has also made the big boy investments in heavy rail like the Silver Line, VRE, and Amtrak, while low-energy developer tools like Riemer have spent those same years delivering empty talk about expanding MARC service and refusing to finish our road network.
Therefore, you can expect this Purple Line extension to be put forward. The County has acquired one piece of land for it at Woodmont and Bethesda Avenues, which will be needed to extend the tracks west from the downtown Bethesda Purple Line station. It is in the process of acquiring land next to the CCT right-of-way where a future River Road station would be. At both locations, it is claiming the acquisitions are for "parks."
We know better.
93 comments:
I feel the neighborhoods will quickly shutter without a movie theater nearby
Gish Gallop
"real estate developer Gov. Larry Hogan"
Love watching all the ups and downs in Dyer's lovehatefest with our governor. :)
I thought you were an advocate for multiple forms of mass transit and higher density near transit locations. You decried the Westbard plans for enhanced density because in your opinion Westbard is too far from mass transit, and now when some are discussing adding light rail transit options in Westbard, you freak out.
The GGW articles are trying to explore all options to enhance communities by enhancing transit options, and are exploring the validity of adding mass transit connectivity that is not an extension of the existing spoke and hub Metro system. In these articles, they are discussing the possibility of creating a more porous system of interconnected transit connections to create a fabric of options.
Even a single track of the Purple Line could easily coexist with the CCT and extend the benefit of light rail transit to Westbard. The CCT right of way is certainly large enough and is close enough to Westbard to be a useful connection. Yes a few trees would be lost, but many folks living around Westbard would have enhanced access to Metro.
GGW makes the argument that all the way to Tyson’s might make little sense, given the population based and lack of nodes of development along the way. They discuss how complicated, and expensive a bridge or tunnel might be. The idea to connect two very similar large office centers many not really be a great idea, and offer only minimal benefits.
So much bullshit, so few hours in a day.
But just one point...
" the failed attempt to remove Kenwood's property tax exemption to try to bankrupt the club"
First, the proposal wasn't to kill Kenwood's property tax exemption. It was to enact a flat fee of $100,000 in addition to the (much lower) property taxes imposed on country clubs.
Second, that proposal was directed at all down-country clubs, in areas in which land values are more than $500,000 an acre, not just Kenwood.
Third, why should all taxpayers in our county be forced to subsidize a handful of rich guys who like to play golf?
6:08: The right-of-way is there, but west of River Road, it is much more constricted. Even the B&O did not contemplate ever having more than two tracks, but was sticking with one. To have two tracks, a median, the CCT and fencing would require not only removal of much more than a few trees, but also altering the terrain on many stretches. It would totally destroy the landscape.
Commuter rail from Silver Spring to Georgetown made more sense, as there was no trail when it was proposed, and it was to remain a single track with a few sidings.
I'm not freaking out, but you can bet people who live along the CCT will when this proposal becomes official. I agree that the project is unlikely to ever extend over the river. The real treasure for developers here is not Tysons, but Westbard and Sumner.
Now consider that - if Riemer's insane mixed-use zoning is applied to the entire SFH neighborhoods around a Purple Line extension, and you could end up with a dystopian urban cityscape where Springfield, Wood Acres, Kenwood, Sumner, Green Acres, Glen Echo Heights, etc. are today.
"There goes the neighborhood."
"Real estate developer Gov. Larry Hogan's eagerness to covertly lower the River Road speed limit to 35 MPH over one recent night"
What???
"There goes the neighborhood."
Do you know the history of this phrase, Dyer?
6:19: Why should taxpayers in Tennessee subsidize the high property taxes of Montgomery County and other northeastern jurisdictions? That injustice was finally addressed in the recent tax reform at the federal level.
The country club proposal actually targeted a handful of clubs, which made a court challenge possible. Moreover, it is these clubs who are providing green space and trees that benefit all of us and the environment. Some of the politicians backing this were fronting for folks like EYA, who would like to put 1000 townhomes on the Kenwood site.
6:26: He took a page out of Rosco P. Coltrane's handbook, but now we know what his hidden agenda may have been - preparing the transition of River Road to an urban street.
6:27: Does the County Council know the history of Communism in the USSR, China, vietnam and Cuba? Something like 100 million dead. Economic collapse. Not too many smart people would try to model themselves after that.
Now that Lyndon LaRouche has passed away, I guess someone has to take up the tinfoil hat
Maybe every other Purple Line train heads west to and from Westbard, on a single track. Minimal cost for a single track and simple covered platform in Westbard, near the new watercourse improvements, with a pedestrian walkway to the new development in Westbard. all in the existing right-of-way, and with a fence separating the track from an enhance hiker biker trail. The single track would cross Woodmont to the Antropolgie plaza, then cross Bethesda to get back in on the CCT. Folks living within 1/4 mile of the Westbard station could have a one seat ride to Bethesda, Silver Spring and the University of Maryland campus, and a two seat ride to DC on the Red Line.
Saith Dyer: "preparing the transition of River Road to an urban street."
Saith absolutely no one, ever: "I totally love that ugly strip of gas stations, fast food joints, convenience stores, and self-storage facilities. I hope no one ever tries to change it."
"These clubs are providing green space and trees that benefit all of us and the environment."
A grassy golf course, with few trees, maintained at the expense of massive amounts of fertilizer and weedkiller, and only open to a small group of privileged people, is not the same as a park.
Yes, there would indeed “go the neighborhood”. Folks that currently own transit-starved housing in areas like Springfield, Wood Acres, Kenwood, Sumner, Green Acres, Glen Echo Heights and Westbard would see their property value double once they had easily walkable access to mass transit. Put a station at Sibley Hospital.
Over time, this area could rival the Rosslyn to Ballston corridor in NoVa by linking bedroom communitites with mass transit. The hell with Tyson’s, just extend the Purple Line to Georgetown, all within the CCT right of way, that already was graded for train use.
Any guesses how long the purple line ride from Silver Spring or Bethesda metro to Tysons would be?
Much shorter than just taking the silver line?
"Does the County Council know the history of Communism?"
Oh, please, Dyer. You sound like a 9-year-old version of Sen. Joe McCarthy.
...who by the way was a deeply closeted homosexual who died of cirrhosis at the age of 48 from years of heavy drinking.
This post should be in the NIMBY hall of fame. Also, the article linked to :
1)does not indicate any actual plan by the county council or others
2)does account for the changes in relative elevation between Westbard and the Potomac
3)does not call for a stop at Sumner place (which would be not feasible with a deep bore tunnel and would only work with a bridge near chain bridge.
Also, why would anyone oppose a rail link to Tyson? Like seriously, this should be a top transportation priority. Face facts. There are more jobs in Tysons and if people want to work there and live in Maryland it's a nightmare now. There are also more jobs coming to Bethesda and if we want to grow that job base better inter-suburban transit is a must. One particular golf course (which would not even be impacted) should not be an impasse to something as vital as this.
6:46: A hellscape of concrete and steel "town centers," mature tree canopy gone, $2 million duplex units next to Section 8 boarding houses on streets formerly lined with stately colonials, green space replaced with 1000-EYA-unit townhome developments, student population in Whitman cluster quadrupled, higher crime, lower air quality and quality of life - hey, what's not to like, right?
6:40: You're talking about a one block commercial strip - I'm talking about the full length of River Road, which is suburban/rural.
6:34: The article was printed on GGW - real life isn't tinfoil hat material. Anybody can read it themselves with the link above.
6:44: Air Quality 101 - trees clean the air. Country clubs even benefit the health of those who don't belong. Plus we get free fireworks from Kenwood each year. Perhaps rather than resenting the hard work and achievement of country club members, why not work towards getting more high-wage jobs in our moribund county - not more Purple Line bedrooms - so more people can afford to join country clubs?
6:57: It mentioned the deep bore tunnel, but it didn't explain how a light rail train would make such a steep grade transition to deep under the Potomac from Fort Sumner(!!) Can you imagine the price tag for a tunnel that long? It will never happen. That's why the plan is to just get to Westbard and Sumner Place. If you were digging these incredibly-expensive deep bore tunnels, you would have to go with heavy rail subway at that point just to justify the expense alone.
I hear CEOs demanding airport access, not light rail. That's why we should focus on a new Potomac crossing to provide direct access to Dulles Airport from the I-270 corridor. If transit was the key, Amazon would have chosen 7272 Wisconsin, on top of two rail lines. They wanted airports - they're getting a pedestrian bridge right to the airport!
6:56: McCarthy was right. He was stopped for that reason. You have no evidence of him being a homosexual, but I find it interesting that a MoCo cartel member would be homophobic in 2019. People will make a note of your comment, I think.
Since every other sentence of this article is complete nonsense, refuting every claim would take the next six hours, but I will say that GGW's - which is at odds with developers on many issues, so calling it "developer-driven" is laughable - idea of extending the Purple Line isn't especially practical or cost-effective.
Still, it's funny that at the same time you're railing against the nonexistent extension plan, you propose a heavy rail extension, which is far more impractical and much less cost-effective.
Finally, taking pot shots at moderate Larry Hogan isn't likely to win you any brownie points, especially in an area where the population of your fellow #MAGA trolls is probably in the single digits. I'm honestly surprised you haven't moved to Alabama, Texas, or your cherished Virginia. They seem more your speed.
Building through Westbard and McLean and a 3.5 tunnel is insane - build a northern spur Bethesda to Grosvenor and then use the North Bethesday Transitway to Montgomery Mall and follow the Beltway across the River.
Let's be clear: we have a rail link to Tysons. It's called the Silver Line and it has 3 stops in Tysons.
7:17: Every sentence is fact. I rarely see GGW at odds with developers; they mysteriously line up on just about every issue with developers.
My actual proposal is to run Metro down the middle of an extension of I-370 to Dulles Airport, to connect the Red and Silver lines between Shady Grove and Dulles. That toll road and bridge would be built by a private firm, and cost taxpayers nothing - unlike the Purple Line, which also eats up MARC money. That's a much cheaper and sensible solution, rather than trying to help a few developers make big bucks and destroy a couple of neighborhoods in the process.
Politicizing MDOT is not something Hogan can be proud of. He's out for himself at the expense of his fellow Republicans. The only problem with running away to Alabama is that eventually the smart growth lemmings flee MoCo and spread their ideas elsewhere. That's what's so brilliant about the smart growth agenda - people get priced out and so disgusted by the results, they spread it like a disease and make the same dumb voting choices wherever they flee to in rural and exurban areas.
You actually spread the ideology and results by destroying the communities you start it in. Homeless armies attacking wealthy tech workers' buses, typhus outbreaks - so much winning!!!!! Thanks, but I'll pass and fight it here.
EYA is the main sponsor of GGW, amd has tight control of David Alpert's agenda
There is very little differnce between a light rail and heavy rail when it comes to the ability to climb a grade. In fact a lighter, single 143’ long Purple Line car with 200 people on board would require much less electrical energy to climb a steep grade than an eight car 600’ long Metro train set with 1200 people on board.
"My actual proposal is to run Metro down the middle of an extension of I-370 to Dulles Airport, to connect the Red and Silver lines between Shady Grove and Dulles."
That sounds like something Developers would love.
"That toll road and bridge would be built by a private firm, and cost taxpayers nothing"
The only such road like that in the country, the Dulles Greenway, suffered serious losses during its first decade of operation, losses which have been rolled forward to justify higher tolls in later years.
Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.), the Congressman representing the area served by the road, stated, "It's highway robbery. It's a disgrace. Everyone knows that these tolls [$7.15 from Dulles to Leesburg] are ripping people off and there's not much we can do about it."
[SOURCE: Wikipedia]
"That's what's so brilliant about the smart growth agenda - people get priced out and so disgusted by the results, they spread it like a disease and make the same dumb voting choices wherever they flee to in rural and exurban areas."
My best attempt at translating this is "No one wants to buy there. It's too expensive." But it also seems like you are confusing Smart Growth and White Flight, which is completely different.
You actually spread the ideology and results by destroying the communities you start it in. Homeless armies attacking wealthy tech workers' buses, typhus outbreaks - so much winning!!!!! Thanks, but I'll pass and fight it here.
So your excuse for having lived in your parents' house for all your life, is that you are somehow protecting Westbard from "homeless armies and typhus outbreaks"?
Dyer wrote: "McCarthy was right. He was stopped for that reason."
Your defense of Joe McCarthy puts you at odds with nearly all of the voting population of Montgomery County.
"At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
Saith Dyer: "Perhaps rather than resenting the hard work and achievement of country club members, why not work towards getting more high-wage jobs in our moribund county."
Or maybe you could get a job.
It's so pathetic watching someone who has never done a hard day of work in his life, nor ever paid for his own housing, and has zero achievements to his own name, call others "Communists".
"Amazon would have chosen 7272 Wisconsin"
No. That building will be just over 900,000 square feet. Amazon required ten times that space initially, and much more as their project is built out over the course of several decades.
"Now consider that - if Riemer's insane mixed-use zoning is applied to the entire SFH neighborhoods around a Purple Line extension, and you could end up with a dystopian urban cityscape where Springfield, Wood Acres, Kenwood, Sumner, Green Acres, Glen Echo Heights, etc. are today.
"A hellscape of concrete and steel "town centers," mature tree canopy gone, $2 million duplex units next to Section 8 boarding houses on streets formerly lined with stately colonials, green space replaced with 1000-EYA-unit townhome developments, student population in Whitman cluster quadrupled, higher crime, lower air quality and quality of life - hey, what's not to like, right?"
Why do you think that a rebuilt Westbard would wind up like that, rather than like Bethesda Row, Pike & Rose, or Rockville Town Center?
"Plus we get free fireworks from Kenwood each year"
I'm glad you enjoy that. But it's not a legitimate factor to consider regarding the best use of the land.
Thank you for the article. Appreciate seeing it.
3:17: Think about it - Riemer's proposed zoning didn't exist when any of the developments you mentioned were built, up through today. He is proposing to remove zoning restrictions that largely were designed to prevent the negative effects I listed above.
So, why would Westbard "wind up like that?" Because it would combine the urban "town center" proposed by Regency Centers - which has neither the quality architecture nor the quality of retail and restaurant tenants Federal Realty brought to the developments you mentioned (RTS possibly excluded, as it was never on the level of the other two) - with a new mixed-use zoning that would ravage the established neighborhoods around the new urban center at Westbard.
Planners and the Council promised us in 2014 that they "would not touch" the SFH neighborhoods, and were only allowing infill development on shopping center sites.
Now we know they lied.
The question of the fireworks is not whether I enjoy them - it's only that they are an example of the ways in which Kenwood benefits the community around it, along with the environmental benefits they provide as green space.
3:10: Wrong. Not only has Amazon backpedaled on nearly every front of their original proposals, but their needs could easily have been met with a combination of 7272 Wisconsin and numerous properties redeveloping around it - plus 7200 next door, 4747 Bethesda adjacent, BF Saul/Bainbridge/Brookfield immediately north across Elm Street, Farm Market/Villain & Saint across Wisconsin, etc. etc. etc.
Plenty of planned or potential office space. The fact is, the Purple Line was not attractive to Amazon (nor to any other major corporations so far).
1:31: LOL - You have no evidence of anything you are claiming. What financial documents of mine do you have to make such claims? Zero. It's like fantasizing about Trump's tax returns. It's fun, but at the end of the day, you have no clue what is in them. You don't have them. So all you can do is make these defamatory, false statements.
12:20: Amend that to say "nearly all of the sheeple population of Montgomery County who haven't bothered to move past the McCarthyism fairy tale promoted by Hollywood and the Deep State (who were in mortal fear of McCarthy's near-exposure of just how many Communists were in their ranks alone) to examine McCarthy's evidence for themselves."
12:16: You seem to have misread or missed all the points of what I said. You're also misinformed. The Dulles Greenway is not the only toll road in America built by a private firm. Moreover, the parameters of any such deal are set by the government in the agreement contracts. Finally, no one is required to use the new bridge, but corporate officers and CEOs using it for business travel to Dulles will be able to deduct the tolls from the company's taxes.
It's somewhat rich for Frank Wolf to complain about a toll road built during his term in Congress. What did he do as a Virginia elected official to protect his constituents at that time?
What does "White Flight" have to do with people of all races being priced out of Montgomery County, D.C., San Francisco, Seattle, and other places with similar housing policies that favor developer profits over sound growth policy?
The whole point of what I said is that people who either get priced out, or are repulsed by the crowded roads and schools of the new "smart growth" Montgomery County, are moving to places like Frederick and Loudoun County. They then vote for "smart growth" far-left Democrats in those counties, which then begin to adopt the same insane housing and tax-and-spend policies those folks fled in leaving Montgomery to begin with.
So what's so remarkable and sinister about "smart growth," is that it spreads to more and more of America by being a DISASTER in the early adopting jurisdictions. The refugees from those areas then unwittingly spread it to the counties they relocate to, and it grows and grows.
That's why the only way to stop it is to fight it on the front lines, instead of retreating to the exurbs, where it will inevitably expand to if we don't crush it here.
8:57: How would it make financial sense to run a one-car light rail over a long route with potentially the most-expensive light-rail tunnel in America? The tunnel topic is mostly a distraction anyway, because there is no way in hell it would ever be built. I don't think the people pushing it even intend to try. The main target is Westbard and Sumner, for the developers who are pushing this behind the scenes.
7:56: Amen!
If there were some way to seize country clubs and church properties for affordable housing, we should do it.
Let me explain:
The pews are emptying. No need for large church parking lots when they only fill for holidays.
Why do we need multiple churches on the same areas? Have multi use church space.
Golf courses and country club should be seized. We could build entire communities of affordable housing in it's place.
7:32: LOL, where should I rank those two suggestions with the other "smart growth" trial balloon floated recently, of replacing cemeteries with housing?
"So what's so remarkable and sinister about "smart growth," is that it spreads to more and more of America by being a DISASTER in the early adopting jurisdictions. The refugees from those areas then unwittingly spread it to the counties they relocate to, and it grows and grows."
More insane babbling. Who are these "refugees from 'smart growth'"?
How can folks play golf when we have kids in cages and insufficient affordable housing. Seize the golf courses.
8:39 AM Please cite one paying job you've had, your address and additional information about your family, including names and their addresses. Are you uncomfortable yet?
We can make up for the loss of Kenwood Country Club by building a nice miniature golf course in the new development.
When MDOT announces the 50 ft wide CCT bridge crossing over Little Falls Pkwy next month you'll know the plan to extend to Sumner is a done deal. The right of way is plenty wide for two tracks down to SUmner....
“ Planners and the Council promised us in 2014 that they "would not touch" the SFH neighborhoods, and were only allowing infill development on shopping center sites“
Please remind me which SFH sites are being developed at Westbard. Are any SF homes being acquired or displaced? Isn’t all of Westbard on commercial or multi family zoned property?
If anything, the property value of any nearby single family homes will skyrocket when this is built. Try and buy a nice little starter home in the Sacks neighborhood near Bethesda Row. Existing single family residents are certainly not harmed by thoughtful mixed use development.
9:21 AM Sacks is steps from Metro- very well served by mass transit. Westbard is not.
#Dyer'sLittleHelper @ 9:26 AM - So you're using the fact that Westbard is not currently served by mass transit, as a reason to NOT extend the Purple Line there?
10:59 AM The post at 9:21AM references Mixed use development, not transit.
If the powers that be want transit running through Westbard, it will happen whether residents want it or not. For all of the protest of the Westbard sector plan, which the vast majority of residents didn't want, it still got done and the out of town developer is getting everything they want.
It's all about the Benjamins.
You really think that single family homes near Westbard will not increase in value once the Westbard development is built, even without the so called top secret Purple Line extension is not built?
As planned, Westbard would change from a nasty old strip center and massive surface parking lot to a nice mixed use neighborhood of retail lined walkable streets, multi-family apartment, townhouse condos all anchored by a brand new Giant market, and focused on nice urban greenspace. Why would anyone think this is a bad idea? Yes traffic might increase a bit, but in return the neighborhood would get a walkable urban destination that would be enjoyed by everyone within a 1/4 mile radius.
11:57 AM There's little green or open space in the plan. There's already a Giant there. Maybe they'll get a Panera or something, but hardly worth all of the additional traffic, folks parking in the neighborhoods, burdening of schools/existing parks, etc.
It's already a very expensive area. There aren't any "starter" homes left that will see huge increases like the Sacks example given above. Maybe this will be a plus for folks living in the apartments on Westbard or in Kenwood Place.
Imagine telling the multi million dollar mansion dwellers along River Road in Potomac that their housing values will go up if they'd just let you build a Starbucks a loads of apartments in their neighborhoods?
With 166,158 SF of Retail, 5074 SF of Office, 190 Apartments and 72 Rowhouses, I suspect they will get much more that a Panera. This is about 1/3 the size of all the retail and office at Bethesda Row.
A nice central urban greenspace is much more that the existing 0 SF greenspace in the parking lots unless you count the few parking lot islands.
I would think the owners of multi-million dollar mansions in Potomac would love to stroll over and visit 166,158 SF of high quality retail arranged around a nice compact urban streetscape. You underestimate the value of a walkable neighborhood filled with retail, shops, cafes, restaurants and a market.
Dictating to property owners how they can or cannot use their property is communism.
2:28: Zoning codes are Communist?
1:18: How do you "stroll over" from Potomac to Westbard, many miles south. It's definitely "compact," with ultimately over 3000 new residents and cars being dropped into a block-and-a-half area. That's called sprawl.
I would love for you to take this reverie you write up often about this "amazing, incredible" development to the streets of Westbard after this very tacky-looking project is complete, so I can hear the feedback from patrons on your over-the-top praise for two boxes and a couple of green postage stamps.
11:57/9:21: You're dodging the issue of the new zoning being proposed by Riemer, which WILL REDEVELOP the SFH neighborhoods around the new Westbard urban zone. It allows duplexes, triplexes and Section 8 boarding houses WITHIN the current SFH neighborhoods.
So go back again to that promise, that they "will not be touching the neighborhoods" around the Westbard sector plan zone. They lied.
9:05: I strongly doubt they will use the bridge option - it doesn't punish drivers enough, and the whole row about the crossing there has been a War-on-Cars operation from the get-go. No, there is not room for 2 tracks, a median, a trail and fencing to Sumner. You would have to destroy the landscape to make enough room for such a project.
8:39: So many assumptions by a creepy stalker, but no evidence of anything you're claiming. Aside from misinterpreting or making wacky assumptions based on information you've looked up on me, can you explain to the public WHY you would have been researching such information about me?
"Section 8 boarding houses"
{eyeroll}
8:09: The refugees are all of many people who have fled to the exurbs of Maryland and Virginia after being priced out of MoCo (a separate group from the very wealthy folks who have fled to rich enclaves in the same jurisdictions due to the high taxes of MoCo). They then make the same dumb, low-information voting choices they did in Montgomery, and you see all the clowns who are now being elected in Loudoun, Frederick, Prince William, etc., and bringing those same "smart-growth" high=tax policies there.
Thus the reality that smart growth spreads not through success, but through its NEGATIVE impacts where it is implemented.
3:06: Let me guess, you're a fan of Mao's Cultural Revolution.
3:30: My campaign website does NOT show my residence and birthdate. So again, explain how and why you came to research and find such details about me, and about specific real estate properties.
4:12AM - Maybe one of your minions is blabbing?
Or maybe 3:30 figured out how to use the google machine?
Maybe someone grew up with you?
Maybe you have an indignant ex?
With as much searching as you seem to have done to get my info, can you really talk?
Proliferation of Section 8 boarding houses is going to price residents out of living in Montgomery County?
Please explain.
Hey, Dyer - do you ever plan on retracting your libelous claim that hip-hop artist Ice-T "promotes murdering police officers on his Body Count album"?
4:36: I've done no searches on you, and the question was, why would this person be searching for my personal information, researching property and crime records on me? He/she has not answered that critical question yet.
4:50: Once again you resort to outright lies:
https://noisey.vice.com/en_us/article/paye7y/talking-cop-killer-with-body-counts-ice-t
4:44: Again, Saul Alinsky, you try to obfuscate. What does Riemer's plan to allow Section 8 boarding houses in SFH neighborhoods countywide have to with the people who fled MoCo because they were priced out long before Riemer even proposed this policy, which hasn't even passed yet?
You HAVE done searches on me!
http://robertdyer.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-blue-house-random-harvest-spaces.html
See Dyer's comment at 2:52
"2:40: There is no "Anna Van Horn" in Bethesda on Facebook or Google"
As far as the Ice-T comment, Distraction again.
You made an incorrect comment and refuse to admit it.
And Ice Cube did "F*** The Police"
Not Ice-T.
Kinda silly to deny things that can be refuted by your own comments on this very blog.
6:23: Of course I did a general search to confirm that fake name AFTER you harassed and attacked me repeatedly as a troll. I did NOT look up your birth date, property records or other information. Anyone being stalked and harassed is justified in trying to find out who is stalking them.
You lied once again about Ice-T. Here's your question I responded to with the URL of the article proving you wrong:
"Hey, Dyer - do you ever plan on retracting your libelous claim that hip-hop artist Ice-T "promotes murdering police officers on his Body Count album"?"
You asked about Ice-T and Body Count, not Ice Cube. Ice-T in fact did promote it.
"2:40: There is no "Anna Van Horn" in Bethesda on Facebook"
Have you considered the possibility that she
1) Blocked you?
2) Is not on Facebook? One-third of Americans do not use Facebook.
Saith Dyer: "Once again you resort to outright lies"
Lieth Dyer outright, just two lines below: "Riemer's plan to allow Section 8 boarding houses in SFH neighborhoods countywide"
What the F are you smoking ? Are your initials AOC ?
You're a complete idiot and I'm being nice.
Saith Dyer: "You asked about Ice-T and Body Count, not Ice Cube. Ice-T in fact did promote it [murdering police officers]."
At least two readers noted that you confused "F***k The Police" by NWA, of which Ice Cube is a member, with "Body Count" by Ice-T.
"Body Count" does not "promote murdering police officers", no matter how many times or different ways you try to spin it.
6:36 - Hahaha on you. I didn't ask that question.
I don't post as Anonymous. We've been over this.
The fact that you choose not to believe me, does not change the fact that it's the name on my birth certificate...even if I may not use Van Horn these days (I'm married)
It's also your choice to accuse me of stalking you, even tho that also is not true.
8:56: LOL - the band recorded a track called "Cop Killer." You can't even lie well.
You posing as "at least two readers" are understandably frustrated that I connected the anti-cop Council members endorsed by the union with both anti-cop rappers Ice=T and NWA in my very effective original statement.
In any other city, the local press would have written a story about a police union endorsing anti-police candidates. Collusion proven again.
7:38: You can't generalize about anything, but 9 times of 10 the only people who don't appear on Facebook search are either odd, or hiding something. It's a common thread among the few nutjobs in the County who have harassed or stalked me for simply printing the truth about their bosses in the MoCo cartel & Council.
Who are these "anti-police candidates" you keep alluding to, and in what way are they "anti-police"? Obviously the police union that endorsed them doesn't believe that they are "anti-police".
6:15: Well, they didn't do their homework, if that is their excuse. In addition to their past on-the-record comments as private citizens and public officials, the anti-cop candidates who were endorsed and won have - just since December - made multiple anti-police statements, including unanimous statements by the entire Council falsely accusing MCPD officers of racial profiling. They have also co-sponsored several anti-police community events for people to come in and bash the police.
Meanwhile, I'm on the record for OVER A DECADE as the leading supporter of our police officers, including being one of the few to testify in support of their disability retirement benefits.
Do you know which of my opponents in the election, including those endorsed by the union, showed up at the public hearing to support our police officers? NONE.
(Every one of those opponents, even the carpetbaggers, were County residents at the time the Council proposed taking officers' benefits away.)
No, you attributed "F***The Police" to Ice-T.
Dyer-" The fact that the cartel controls every major endorsement - to the point that the police union endorses Ice-T-style "F-the-Police" anti-cop Democratic candidates over someone who comes out in 10-degree weather to help police keep their retirement health benefits(!!) - does not disqualify those of us who are not corrupt and therefore cannot be endorsed by any of the entities controlled by the cartel."
Again, kinda silly to deny things that can be refuted by your own comments on this very blog.
Ice Cube did "F*** The Police"
Not Ice-T.
This bizarre world of denial that you live in is quite interesting. I've been reading about it, (in general, not specifically about you) and find it a fascinating topic.
So, in a round-about way...thanks.
6:25: No kidding, and now you're back to misreading my original statement that referred to both Ice-T and Ice Cube, and their famous anti-cop songs.You can see it right there. Again, you may also have difficulty reading and interpreting the 2nd Amendment, if you assume that two clauses in one statement are always referring to the same thing. Usually one learns that in 1st or 2nd grade.
What the hell all of this discussion has to do with the topic of this article - you're engaged in your classic Saul Alinsky tactics to divert people from the topic at hand.
"...including unanimous statements by the entire Council falsely accusing MCPD officers of racial profiling."
Why do you believe that ANY accusation against INDIVIDUAL police officers is "anti-police"?
And it's quite hypocritical of you, given that you accuse the majority-minority Housing Opportunities Commission Board of being "racist" over the cemetery issue.
7:28: No, many of these statements and events have been broadly about "the police."
The Council and Planning Board have also been racist about the cemetery, and were majority-white at the time.
"No, many of these statements and events have been broadly about "the police.""
Such as? Please list some examples.
And don't just shout "Alinsky" in a lame attempt to evade scrutiny of your BS.
There is no "Ice-T style" of "F*** The Police."
Speaking of Ice of the Cube variety, his new "Arrest The President" ...golden
The worst thing to happen to Bethesda was the Metro
Georgetown knew that the metro would bring the criminals in by train and REFUSED A METRO LINE
SO SMART
BETHESDA HAS SO MUCH CRIME FROM THE MONTGOMERY VILLAGE CAPITAL HILL SE EXPATS HOPPING ON THE SUBWAY AND THE SE CAPITAL HILL AND ILLEGALS
BEFORE THE SUBWAY NO CRIME IN BETHESDA
AND HEY POLICE ARE RIGHT 90% of the crime in BETHESDA committed by BLACKS AND HISPANICS ILLEGALS
"The Council and Planning Board have also been racist about the cemetery, and were majority-white at the time."
At WHAT time?
If you're referring to when the cemetery was allegedly paved over in the mid-1960s, neither body existed then.
6:26: Classic Saul Alinsky. The Planning Board and Council called police on representatives of the black church in the last couple of years.
The cemetery WAS (not "allegedly") desecrated and paved over in the late 1960s. That action was the doing of Dr. Tauber and his contractors.
You sound a lot like "josfitz" and "Crickey" who repeat a bizarre talking point about the cemetery "never having existed" or that the bodies were relocated. There is extensive paper trail on the creation of, and burials at, the cemetery in that precise location. There is not a single piece of documentation of the cemetery being relocated - and such a relocation requires state approval with full documentation, and no such request or documentation exists.
All of the actual physical evidence is on the cemetery advocates' side.
8:42: No kidding. Again, you are misreading my original statement just as many misread the 2nd Amendment.
8:07: You've fallen into your old trap - if you were not living in the County over the last few years, why would you even be disputing what I'm saying. And if you were here following events and news, you already know the answer to your question, and are - yes - pulling a Saul Alinsky of trying to make me spend my time laboriously compiling information you already possess. Nice try, Saul!
"You sound a lot like "josfitz" and "Crickey" who repeat a bizarre talking point"
You sound a lot like someone who reads BB regularly.
Do you comment there, too?
Dyer: "the anti-cop candidates who were endorsed and won have - just since December - made multiple anti-police statements, including unanimous statements by the entire Council falsely accusing MCPD officers of racial profiling. They have also co-sponsored several anti-police community events for people to come in and bash the police."
Dyer: "...including unanimous statements by the entire Council falsely accusing MCPD officers of racial profiling."
Reader: "Why do you believe that ANY accusation against INDIVIDUAL police officers is "anti-police"?"
Dyer: "No, many of these statements and events have been broadly about "the police.""
Reader: "Such as? Please list some examples."
Dyer: "You've fallen into your old trap - if you were not living in the County over the last few years, why would you even be disputing what I'm saying."
In other words, you've got nothing.
Dyer: " I'm on the record for OVER A DECADE as the leading supporter of our police officers, including being one of the few to testify in support of their disability retirement benefits."
Here is the police disability pension issue from 2008-09 to which Dyer refers:
Montgomery County Council members said yesterday that the government's disability retirement system for police officers is broken and ripe for potential abuse.
Council members were responding to an inspector general's report this week that found more than 60 percent of police officers who retired in the past four years are collecting disability benefits, including senior managers who have gone on to other law enforcement jobs.
Council member Phil Andrews (D-Gaithersburg-Rockville) said that the system is unduly influenced by labor unions that have veto power over the doctors and arbitrators who determine an employee's eligibility to collect disability benefits.
"That doesn't strike me as the best way to get an independent opinion," said Andrews, who leads the Public Safety Committee and is often critical of union influence. "Appellants should not be able to pick their judges."
Andrews and council member Duchy Trachtenberg (D-At Large) said they would act quickly to introduce legislation to ensure independent review of disability claims, give county officials the ability to deny benefits to officers involved in wrongdoing and create a smaller partial disability benefit.
Council member Marc Elrich (D-At Large) suggested that elected officials were responsible for setting up a system that "incentivizes people to take advantage. That's different than gaming the system," he said. "We've all signed off on this."
Retirees eligible for service-related disability receive two-thirds of their previous salary tax free for life. Officers who retire without disability after 25 years generally receive about 60 percent of their salaries, and the standard retirement benefit dips significantly when a retiree begins to collect Social Security.
The inspector general's report criticized county officials for lax oversight, including limited use of routine physical exams to assess the health of current officers. He also faulted county officials for a decision to stop giving disabled retirees annual checkups to determine whether their conditions have changed.
Thomas D. Evans, who was acting police chief in 1999, called the situation "scandalous" and urged county leaders to fix it. Evans retired after 25 years with bumps and bruises from making arrests. But he said in a letter to Leggett and council members that he "would not have even considered spinning that into a disability retirement."
Evans said he knows of officers who have retired on disability and gone on to work in law enforcement, as rodeo bull wrestlers or roofers.
"What we don't want is a system that allows people with your typical age-related conditions to misuse the system," Evans wrote. "All of us deteriorate to some degree as we age. That does not mean we should get a large tax-free income for life."
Why do you think that this system should not be reformed, Dyer?
6:11: Because A) the rationale was a hoax designed to shift County funds from police officers to developers and nonprofits with Council ties, B) no officer was ever found guilty of "gaming the system," and C) the new policy puts the public in danger, as officers would be less likely to endanger themselves knowing that any resulting long term injury or pain might not be covered by their retirement benefits for life.
6:05: Were you in the County over the last three years, or not? If you were, you know about the meetings that were held in Silver Spring and Rockville, as well as about comments made publicly online and off by current Councilmembers, and the previous Council, that slandered MCPD officers with false claims of racial profiling.
If you weren't in the County, you have no standing to question my assessment. It's that simple.
5:55: I've never commented there. I certainly do read the comments, however.
"Were you in the County over the last three years, or not? If you were, you know about the meetings that were held in Silver Spring and Rockville, as well as about comments made publicly online and off by current Councilmembers, and the previous Council, that slandered MCPD officers with false claims of racial profiling."
If there were so many of such comments, why is it impossible for you to list even ONE?
"Because A) the rationale was a hoax designed to shift County funds from police officers to developers and nonprofits with Council ties, B) no officer was ever found guilty of "gaming the system," and C) the new policy puts the public in danger, as officers would be less likely to endanger themselves knowing that any resulting long term injury or pain might not be covered by their retirement benefits for life."
How do you explain the fact that at least one former MCPD Chief supported greater scrutiny of disability pensions?
More importantly, what is the basis for your assumption that money not being spent on police disability pensions will be "shifted to developers and nonprofits with Council ties"? Where do you get this nonsense?
9:50: That's where most of money not going to MCPS or County employee salaries is going to, a hotbed of corruption that needs to be investigated by the FBI.
"They call it a non-profit, but somebody profits."
And the non-profit leaders raise their salaries using County funds, then make the max donation to the councilmembers who voted to give them County funds, including George Leventhal. I get all that "nonsense" from the public records.
Apparently you don't understand that police chief is a political appointment position, that hardly represents the views of the average police officer or police union. So it's easily explained why a political appointee would ape his bosses' views on an issue.
6:33: Because I don't work for you. Classic Saul Alinsky tactics to keep making your opponents do busy work.
"If every letter must receive a response, send 30000 letters." - Saul Alinsky
"Because I don't work for you. Classic Saul Alinsky tactics to keep making your opponents do busy work."
That's a hell of an attitude for a journalist to have. As well as for someone who has run for public office.
But back to the question - why can't you provide even ONE quote that supports your claim that Councilmembers are "anti-police"? If this attitude is as strong and widespread as you claim, then it shouldn't be "busy work" to find just one such quote.
The minute you say "Alinsky", you've lost. You're not smart enough to argue your point.
Your quote doesn't even apply. The reader asking ONE question. The fact that you distract and he has to ask it over and over and over again does not make him guilty of Alinsky tactics.
You're more guilty of using those tactics than those you accuse.
Which brings us right back to projection, and you accusing people of what you're guilty of.
6:31: That's rich from the clown who yesterday typed that the Post was exempt from doing "the work" of covering the Council campaign for the wacky reason that I had not received massive donations from the criminal MoCo cartel. If you haven't been following the nasty anti-police comments from the Council, what is your standing to question my assertions then? A big red rubber nose and wildly-oversized shoes?
2:52: Sure, Alinsky tactics must sometimes be used to fight Alinsky tactics, but not with the anti-American, Communist intent that Alinsky and his Fellow Travelers possessed. Imagine how much fun the next Democratic president will have with the new normal regarding presidential investigations, counting lies, and seeking impeachment!
No, not really. The next Democrat elected President will be able to and will consistently NOT TELL LIES. Just wait. You'll see.
Like i said, the minute you mention Alinsky...you've already lost.
These comment and questions aren't at all like Alinsky. You grasp onto a few of his ideas and hurl them at your readers willy-nilly.
Anyone who had read Alinsky, researched community organization, can see the (as so eloquently voiced previously) that “the Right has taken Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and shoved it up where #TheResistance don’t shine.”
For heaven's sake...this Alinsky tactic is PURE DYER:
“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.
5:11: Every President has lied...but never before has the media tracked, recorded, fact-checked and reported each lie. Imagine if Obama and his press secretary had received the same treatment. "If you like you doctor...." LOL
Bush 43:
"Weapons of mass destruction...axis of evil." LOL
So I look forward to the daily roundup of each lie the next president tells. And wire to wire investigations by Congress and a special counsel.
5:18: George Leventhal and Hans Riemer would agree I am highly effective as doing so. Watch their reactions at the historic final Council At-Large general election debate allowed in Montgomery County history hosted by MyMCMedia in 2014.
I'm such a great debater, I ended debates. They acknowledge they can't beat me, so they have to cancel the debates now. Humiliating clown move by the embezzling girly men of the County Council.
Sure. You keep thinking that. It's working out so very well for you.
And yet, you cannot debate one little point while keeping on topic and not slinging insults. You couldn't debate your way out of a paper bag without your "props."
As far as Presidents and telling lies? This President will actually ensure MORE truth-telling in the future. he next Democrat elected President will be able to and will consistently NOT TELL LIES. Just wait. You'll see.
Do you make up this crazy stuff yourself or get it from 8chan?
8:07: If what you predict is true, he or she will be the first president since Andrew Jackson to "consistently not tell lies." Looking forward to it!
You slipped up and went into your Antifa persona again while posting as "Anna." I suspect the Antifa voice is your actual one. Heard any good Morris Dees jokes recently?
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